Victor Kagan: "Ọ bụ ọrụ dị mfe? Mba. Ma obi ụtọ"

Psychology: Kedu ihe, n'echiche gị, gbanwere na Russian psychotherapy ma e jiri ya tụnyere oge ị malitere?

Victor Kagan: M ga-asị na ndị mmadụ agbanweela nke mbụ. Na maka mma. Ọbụna 7-8 afọ gara aga, mgbe m na-eduzi ọmụmụ ihe (nke ndị ọkà n'akparamàgwà mmadụ n'onwe ha gosipụtara kpọmkwem ikpe na ụzọ ọrụ), ntutu m kwụsịrị. A gbara ndị ahịa bịara na ahụmahụ ha ajụjụ banyere ọnọdụ dị n'ụdị onye uwe ojii obodo ma nye ha ụkpụrụ omume "ziri ezi". Ọfọn, ọtụtụ ihe ndị ọzọ a na-apụghị ime na psychotherapy na-eme mgbe niile.

And now people work much “cleaner”, become more qualified, they have their own handwriting, they, as they say, feel with their fingers what they are doing, and do not look back endlessly at textbooks and diagrams. They begin to give themselves freedom to work. Although, perhaps, this is not an objective picture. Because those who work poorly usually don’t go to groups. They have no time to study and doubt, they need to earn money, they are great in themselves, what other groups are there. But from those whom I see, the impression is just that — very pleasant.

Ma ọ bụrụ na anyị na-ekwu banyere ndị ahịa na nsogbu ha? Ọ nwere ihe gbanwere ebe a?

VC: In the late 1980s and even in the early 1990s, people with clear clinical symptoms more often asked for help: hysterical neurosis, asthenic neurosis, obsessive-compulsive disorder … Now — I know from my own practice, from the stories of colleagues, Irvin Yalom says the same – classical neurosis has become a museum rarity.

Kedu ka esi akọwa ya?

VC: I think the point is a global change in lifestyles, which is felt more acutely in Russia. The communal Soviet society had, it seems to me, its own system of call signs. Such a society can be compared to an anthill. The ant is tired, he cannot work, he needs to lie down somewhere so as not to be devoured, thrown away like ballast. Previously, in this case, the signal to the anthill was this: I am sick. I have a hysterical fit, I have hysterical blindness, I have a neurosis. You see, the next time they send potatoes to pick, they will take pity on me. That is, on the one hand, everyone had to be ready to give their lives for society. But on the other hand, this very society rewarded the victims. And if he had not yet had time to completely give up his life, they could send him to a sanatorium — to receive medical treatment.

Ma taa ọ dịghị anthill ahụ. Iwu agbanweela. Ma ọ bụrụ na m ezipụ mgbaàmà dị otú ahụ, m na-atụfu ozugbo. Ị na-arịa ọrịa? Yabụ na ọ bụ gị kpatara, ị naghị elekọta onwe gị nke ọma. Na n'ozuzu, gịnị mere mmadụ ga-eji rịa ọrịa mgbe e nwere ụdị ọgwụ ndị dị ebube? Ma eleghị anya, ị nweghị ego zuru ezu maka ha? Yabụ, ị maghị etu esi arụ ọrụ!

Anyị na-ebi n'ime obodo ebe akparamaagwa na-akwụsị ịbụ naanị mmeghachi omume na ihe ndị ọzọ na-ekpebi ha na ndụ n'onwe ya. Nke a enweghị ike ịgbanwe asụsụ nke neuroses na-asụ, na microscope nke nlebara anya na-enweta mkpebi ka ukwuu, na psychotherapy na-ahapụ mgbidi ụlọ ọrụ ahụike ma na-eto site na ndụmọdụ ndị nwere ahụike uche.

Na onye nwere ike na-atụle ahụkarị ahịa nke psychotherapists?

VC: Are you waiting for the answer: «bored wives of rich businessmen»? Well, of course, those who have the money and time for this are more willing to go for help. But in general there are no typical clients. There are men and women, rich and poor, old and young. Although the old people are still less willing. Incidentally, my American colleagues and I argued a lot in this regard about how long a person can be a client of a psychotherapist. And they came to the conclusion that until the moment he understands the jokes. If the sense of humor is preserved, then you can work.

Mana n'ụdị ọchị ọ na-eme ọbụlagodi na ntorobịa dị njọ…

VC: Ee, ma ị maghị otú ọ ga-esi esi ike ka gị na ndị dị otú ahụ na-arụkọ ọrụ! Ma nke ukwuu, mgbe ahụ, n'ezie, e nwere mgbaàmà dị ka ihe ngosi maka psychotherapy. Ka anyị kwuo na m na-atụ oyi oyi. Nke a bụ ebe ọgwụgwọ omume nwere ike inye aka. Ma ọ bụrụ na anyị na-ekwu banyere àgwà, m na-ahụ abụọ mgbọrọgwụ, existential ihe na-atụgharị na a psychotherapist. Merab Mamardashvili, onye ọkà ihe ọmụma nke m ji ọtụtụ ihe n'ịghọta mmadụ, dere na mmadụ "na-achịkọta onwe ya". Ọ na-agakwuru onye ọkà n'akparamàgwà mmadụ mgbe usoro a malitere ịda. Okwu mmadụ na-akọwa ya adịchaghị mkpa, ma ọ na-adị ya ka à ga-asị na ọ hapụwo ụzọ ya. Nke a bụ nke mbụ kpatara ya.

And the second is that a person is alone in front of this state of his, he has no one to talk about it with. At first he tries to figure it out himself, but he can’t. Tries to talk to friends — doesn’t work. Because friends in relations with him have their own interest, they cannot be neutral, they work for themselves, no matter how kind they are. A wife or husband will not understand either, they also have their own interests, and you can’t tell them everything at all. In general, there is no one to talk to — no one to talk to. And then, in search of a living soul with whom you can not be alone in your problem, he comes to a psychotherapist …

…onye ọrụ na-amalite na ige ya ntị?

VC: Ọrụ na-amalite ebe ọ bụla. E nwere akụkọ ahụike dị otú ahụ banyere Marshal Zhukov. Ozugbo ọ dara ọrịa, na, n'ezie, e zigara onye isi ọkụ n'ụlọ ya. Onye na-enwu enwu bịarutere, mana onye ọchịagha ahụ ahụghị ya n'anya. Ha zipụrụ ọkụ ọkụ nke abụọ, nke atọ, nke anọ, ọ chụpụrụ onye ọ bụla ... Onye ọ bụla na-efunahụ ya, mana ọ dị mkpa ka a gwọọ ha, Marshal Zhukov. E zigara prọfesọ dị mfe. Ọ pụtara, Zhukov na-apụ izute. Prọfesọ ahụ tụbara uwe ya n'aka ndị agha ma banye n'ime ụlọ. Ma mgbe Zhukov, mgbe ọ kwụgidere uwe ya, batara n'azụ ya, prọfesọ ahụ kwere ya: "Nọdụ ala!" Prọfesọ a ghọrọ dọkịta marshal.

I tell this to the fact that the work really begins with anything. Something is heard in the voice of the client when he calls, something is seen in his manner when he enters … The main working tool of the psychotherapist is the psychotherapist himself. I am the instrument. Why? Because it’s what I hear and react. If I sit in front of the patient and my back starts to hurt, then it means that I reacted by myself, with this pain. And I have ways to check it, to ask — does it hurt? It is an absolutely living process, body to body, sound to sound, sensation to sensation. I am a test instrument, I am an instrument of intervention, I work with the word.

Moreover, when you are working with a patient, it is impossible to engage in a meaningful selection of words, if you think about it — therapy is over. But somehow I do it too. And in a personal sense, I also work with myself: I am open, I have to give the patient an unlearned reaction: the patient always feels when I sing a well-learned song. No, I have to give exactly my reaction, but it must also be therapeutic.

Enwere ike ịmụta ihe a niile?

VC: It is possible and necessary. Not at the university, of course. Although at the university you can and should learn other things. Passing licensing exams in America, I appreciated their approach to education. A psychotherapist, a helping psychologist, must know a lot. Including anatomy and physiology, psychopharmacology and somatic disorders, the symptoms of which may resemble psychological … Well, after receiving an academic education — to study psychotherapy itself. Plus, it would probably be nice to have some inclinations for such work.

Ị na-ajụ mgbe ụfọdụ ka gị na onye ọrịa na-arụkọ ọrụ? Gịnịkwa kpatara ya?

VC: Ọ na-eme. Mgbe ụfọdụ ike na-agwụ m, mgbe ụfọdụ ọ bụ ihe m na-anụ n'olu ya, mgbe ụfọdụ ọ bụ ụdị nsogbu ahụ. Ọ na-esiri m ike ịkọwa mmetụta a, mana amụtala m ịtụkwasị ya obi. Aga m ajụ ma ọ bụrụ na enweghị m ike imeri àgwà nleba anya n'ebe mmadụ ma ọ bụ nsogbu ya nọ. Amaara m site n'ahụmahụ m na ọ bụrụgodị na mụ na onye dị otú ahụ malite ịrụkọ ọrụ, o yikarịrị ka anyị agaghị aga nke ọma.

Please specify about the «evaluative attitude». In one interview you said that if Hitler comes to see a psychotherapist, the therapist is free to refuse. But if he undertakes to work, then he must help him solve his problems.

VC: Kpọmkwem. Na ịhụ n'ihu gị ọ bụghị onye ọjọọ Hitler, kama onye na-ata ahụhụ site na ihe na-achọ enyemaka. Na nke a, psychotherapy dị iche na nkwurịta okwu ọ bụla ọzọ, ọ na-emepụta mmekọrịta na-adịghị ahụ n'ebe ọ bụla ọzọ. Kedu ihe kpatara onye ọrịa ji ahụkarị onye na-ahụ maka ọgwụgwọ n'anya? Anyị nwere ike ikwu ọtụtụ buzzwords banyere transference, countertransference… Ma onye ọrịa dị nnọọ odụk a mmekọrịta na ọ dịghị mgbe na, a mmekọrịta nke zuru okè ịhụnanya. Ọ chọkwara idebe ha n’ego ọ bụla. Mmekọrịta ndị a bụ ndị kasị baa uru, nke a bụ kpọmkwem ihe na-eme ka onye ọkà n'akparamàgwà mmadụ nwee ike ịnụ onye nwere ahụmahụ ya.

At the very beginning of the 1990s in St. Petersburg, a man once called the helpline and said that when he was 15, he and his friends caught girls in the evenings and raped them, and it was terribly fun. But now, many years later, he remembered this — and now he cannot live with it. He articulated the problem very clearly: «I can’t live with it.» What is the task of the therapist? Not to help him commit suicide, turn him in to the police or send him to repentance at all the addresses of the victims. The task is to help clarify this experience for yourself and live with it. And how to live and what to do next — he will decide for himself.

Ya bụ, psychotherapy na nke a na-ewepụ na-agbalị ime ka mmadụ mma?

VC: Making a person better is not the task of psychotherapy at all. Then let’s immediately raise the shield of eugenics. Moreover, with the current successes in genetic engineering, it is possible to modify three genes here, remove four there … And to be sure, we will also implant a couple of chips for remote control from above. And all at once will become very, very good — so good that even Orwell could not even dream of. Psychotherapy is not about that at all.

I would say this: everyone lives their life, as if embroidering their own pattern on the canvas. But sometimes it happens that you stick a needle — but the thread does not follow it: it is tangled, there is a knot on it. To unravel this knot is my task as a psychotherapist. And what kind of pattern is there — it’s not for me to decide. A man comes to me when something in his condition interferes with his freedom to collect himself and be himself. My task is to help him regain that freedom. Is it an easy job? No. But — happy.